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Racing Porting

 
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NitroRotary



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:49 am    Post subject: Racing Porting Reply with quote

Hello everyone! I'm new on REI and glad to be here Very Happy . Now, on to my question. What type or types of engine ports would make optimum power and/or torque on a turbocharged dedicated racing rotary?
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Blake
Been there, done that


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kind of racing, what turbo, what power/torque goal? Generally, with a turbo setup, you tend to stick with a large "extend" street port (see RE 101 section on porting). This basically just retards the intake port closing timing (keeps it open longer), so that the turbo can continue stuffing A/F into the engine, even after the chamber starts to compress. You usually don't want boost to "leak" out the exhaust ports, so you avoid a lot of overlap. This rules out bridgeports and peripheral ports...but not always. If you are really interested in only a very specific high-rpm range and have a gi-hugic (TM) turbo that is very specifically made for the application, you can use bridge or peripheral ports. It just all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
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NitroRotary



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer your questions: prototype sports car racing, no specific turbo (this is still in the planning stages), and 750-840+bhp & 450-670+ft/lbs or more if reliable and fuel efficient enough to be practical(basically looking for 787B or better performance for a similar type of car). Also, would screw supercharging or dynamic supercharging have any benefits over turbocharging? What's a a gi-hugic turbo? And would side exhaust ports help with the overlap or hinder from the restriction? Thanks again for your help, and sorry to ask so much!
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Blake
Been there, done that


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NitroRotary wrote:
To answer your questions: prototype sports car racing, no specific turbo (this is still in the planning stages), and 750-840+bhp & 450-670+ft/lbs or more if reliable and fuel efficient enough to be practical(basically looking for 787B or better performance for a similar type of car). Also, would screw supercharging or dynamic supercharging have any benefits over turbocharging? What's a a gi-hugic turbo? And would side exhaust ports help with the overlap or hinder from the restriction? Thanks again for your help, and sorry to ask so much!


Umm...riiiight! Rolling Eyes

If you aren't Roger Penske (or equivalent), please go away. If you are, then call the shop and ask to speak to me. I find it hard to believe a multi-million dollar racing effort would slum an internet forum, seeking very general but very lofty technical advice for free. The questions themselves are also quite suspect. I dunno...maybe you are for real, but I get a very strong vibe that you are a kid living in a fantasy world. The sort answer is that it will cost you time and money to find out and if you are a serious multi-million dollar prototype racing outfit, you will have no problem forking over the cash to get the answers.
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Blake Qualley
Pineapple Racing, Inc.
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enthusiast



Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 4
Location: sydney

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blake wrote:
NitroRotary wrote:
To answer your questions: prototype sports car racing, no specific turbo (this is still in the planning stages), and 750-840+bhp & 450-670+ft/lbs or more if reliable and fuel efficient enough to be practical(basically looking for 787B or better performance for a similar type of car). Also, would screw supercharging or dynamic supercharging have any benefits over turbocharging? What's a a gi-hugic turbo? And would side exhaust ports help with the overlap or hinder from the restriction? Thanks again for your help, and sorry to ask so much!


Umm...riiiight! Rolling Eyes

If you aren't Roger Penske (or equivalent), please go away. If you are, then call the shop and ask to speak to me. I find it hard to believe a multi-million dollar racing effort would slum an internet forum, seeking very general but very lofty technical advice for free. The questions themselves are also quite suspect. I dunno...maybe you are for real, but I get a very strong vibe that you are a kid living in a fantasy world. The sort answer is that it will cost you time and money to find out and if you are a serious multi-million dollar prototype racing outfit, you will have no problem forking over the cash to get the answers.


i reckon u might b rite Razz
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had a equalizer amp and sub when sold to car dealer...anyone seen it around ??
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Eson



Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blake wrote:
NitroRotary wrote:
To answer your questions: prototype sports car racing, no specific turbo (this is still in the planning stages), and 750-840+bhp & 450-670+ft/lbs or more if reliable and fuel efficient enough to be practical(basically looking for 787B or better performance for a similar type of car). Also, would screw supercharging or dynamic supercharging have any benefits over turbocharging? What's a a gi-hugic turbo? And would side exhaust ports help with the overlap or hinder from the restriction? Thanks again for your help, and sorry to ask so much!


Umm...riiiight! Rolling Eyes

If you aren't Roger Penske (or equivalent), please go away. If you are, then call the shop and ask to speak to me. I find it hard to believe a multi-million dollar racing effort would slum an internet forum, seeking very general but very lofty technical advice for free. The questions themselves are also quite suspect. I dunno...maybe you are for real, but I get a very strong vibe that you are a kid living in a fantasy world. The sort answer is that it will cost you time and money to find out and if you are a serious multi-million dollar prototype racing outfit, you will have no problem forking over the cash to get the answers.


Dont say that! How would the world look like if evryone told their kids to stop their wild dreaming, and dont ask why? Look at Von Koenigsegg, he said "im going to build the worlds fastest serial productional car" and evryone laughed at him. A couple years later he now have the worlds fastest car. If now NitroRotary doesnt have the money or knowledge to do what he wants to, why would we ask him to forget it? No wonder the rotaries doesnt develop any further...


NitroRotary: Turbocharging and rotaries walk hand and hand since the rotaries doesnt completly burn the fuel so the exhaust is more dense which allows the turbo to be more efficient. But superchargers got no lag and such things, read this article for turbo vs. superchargers: http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=19 Also read the other articles (under 'Tech') so you know which supercharger is best for you applications. A screw type is best for low RPM torque(boost) and a centrifugal is best for high RPM boost: http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=76 This type of supercharger can be find in the 800hp Koenigsegg engine: http://www.koenigsegg.com/thecars/engineering.asp?engineering=2

And to be realistic, you probably need other things then just a supercharger and a 13B to achieve those numbers. You could build a bigger engine but there's a limit how much the materials can handle to be pratical in a race car (or for the wallet..). I would go and look for things to improve the fuel efficiency without loosing performance. A bigger engine need more fuel, which add more weight and makes the biggest advantage the rotaries have over piston-engines useless; HP to weight ratio.
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NitroRotary



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, thanks for giving a crap. Second, because i'm going to an engineering school, equipment/materials/money can be included in a research project or something like that. Given what i will hopefully have access to, not settling for a 13b shouldn't be a problem. Being optimistitic, i hope i can start with a sheet of paper and a couple of blocks of CNC metals and end up with an engine. I also know that i will need more than a supercharger or turbo, and i have many possible ideas to suppliment the turbo for power and reliability. That said, any help or information you can provide would be helpful. Also, what kind of oil goes well in a racing rotary? Thanks again.
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jptg



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 66
Location: CA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The oil that most rotary owners uses are mineral oil. Try not to use synthetic oil because it can cause a leaks around the bottom of the engine. Plus, the oil shoots directly to the combustion chamber unlike the pistons engines. Synthetic can be helpful for the rotary engine if you use a special type of oil made for the rotary engine. It is called "Idetsumu" its from Japan and just try looking around the internet and you will find a seller. -JP
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Blake
Been there, done that


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jptg wrote:
The oil that most rotary owners uses are mineral oil. Try not to use synthetic oil because it can cause a leaks around the bottom of the engine. Plus, the oil shoots directly to the combustion chamber unlike the pistons engines. Synthetic can be helpful for the rotary engine if you use a special type of oil made for the rotary engine. It is called "Idetsumu" its from Japan and just try looking around the internet and you will find a seller. -JP


I dissagree that you need a special synthetic oil. Royal Purple or Mobil 1 are great synthetics that burn cleanly. I am unaware of any major brand synthetic that causes as much carbon build-up as mineral oils. We recommend synthetic motor oil to all our customers. The old wives tales about synthetics not burning, or not buring cleanly, are simply not true in our experience. Not saying there isn't some obscure brand out there that's bad, but the big ones seem fine. I've used synthetics for about eight years, in numerous cars, and Rob has been running them for about 12 years in all his vehicles.
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Blake Qualley
Pineapple Racing, Inc.
(503) 233-3878
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jptg



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 66
Location: CA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would'nt it cause a so called dowel leak? When I got my fc3s, it was running on mineral oil, so I switch to Mobil 1 synthetic, after a few months i started to see small leaks on the side of my engine. I pretty sure that everything was running fine and there were no leaks. well, this is just based on my own experience. And I did some research on it by articles and books, it explained that rotary engine will run fine with a conventional mineral oil. I know that you guys have more experience than me and I will take that advise also. JP
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Blake
Been there, done that


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jptg wrote:
Would'nt it cause a so called dowel leak? When I got my fc3s, it was running on mineral oil, so I switch to Mobil 1 synthetic, after a few months i started to see small leaks on the side of my engine. I pretty sure that everything was running fine and there were no leaks. well, this is just based on my own experience. And I did some research on it by articles and books, it explained that rotary engine will run fine with a conventional mineral oil. I know that you guys have more experience than me and I will take that advise also. JP


Mineral oils can swell seals and synthetics generally don't, so if you switch to synthetics at a high mileage you may see some leaks. But, there's really no reason to use synthetics on an older engine (50K+ miles)...synthetics can't reverse the wear and tear; they are intended to reduce it in the first place. I'm also not against using mineral oil for the life of the engine. Mineral oils work quite well and are definitely a more economical choice. But, if you have invested in a quality rebuild, synthetics are a good way to preserve it.
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Blake Qualley
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jptg



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 66
Location: CA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blake wrote:
"Mineral oils can swell seals and synthetics generally don't, so if you switch to synthetics at a high mileage you may see some leaks. But, there's really no reason to use synthetics on an older engine (50K+ miles)...synthetics can't reverse the wear and tear; they are intended to reduce it in the first place. I'm also not against using mineral oil for the life of the engine. Mineral oils work quite well and are definitely a more economical choice. But, if you have invested in a quality rebuild, synthetics are a good way to preserve it."

Thats true, well right now I am currently rebuilding my engine. So once I completely rebuild my engine, I can use synthetic for the rest of the engine life?
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Blake
Been there, done that


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jptg wrote:
Thats true, well right now I am currently rebuilding my engine. So once I completely rebuild my engine, I can use synthetic for the rest of the engine life?


Yes, if you think it's worth the investment. I recommend Royal Purple or Mobil 1. I'm not a fan of Amsoil, in general, let alone motor oil. Of course, synthetics are recommended for every other application, too, like transmission and differential. In all things, I am partial to Royal Purple. One of their top engineers, David Canitz, races an RX-2. I've used most RP products, including motor oil, gear oil, premix, assembly lube and even bearing grease.
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Blake Qualley
Pineapple Racing, Inc.
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NitroRotary



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard plenty about the synthetic versus mineral oil debate. I meant what weight or weights of oil are best (for racing) and (this is probably a stupid question) can i get by without oil injection if i use ceramic or carbon apex seals?
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Blake
Been there, done that


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NitroRotary wrote:
I have heard plenty about the synthetic versus mineral oil debate. I meant what weight or weights of oil are best (for racing) and (this is probably a stupid question) can i get by without oil injection if i use ceramic or carbon apex seals?


No, you can't get by without some form of apex seal lubrication. You can opt for premixing 2-stroke oil in the gasoline, instead of oil injection, if you prefer. For racing, that is the usual method. I use Royal Purple 2-stroke mix. Weight of the oil is very dependant on the temperature as well as how your engine is set up. For racing, I use Royal Purple "Racing 21", usually. Find the oil manufacturer you want to use and refer to their literature for guidance on oil weight...or talk to your engine builder.
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Blake Qualley
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